Intent in Your Images with Rebecca Yale

Rebecca Yale is a talented photographer who got her degree in photography out in New York. She takes her photo school and art history background and applies intentionality and thought into the images she takes. In this interview, we chat through the importance of knowing why you’re taking the images you take and how Rebecca approaches her work.

Below is the transcript from the interview with Rebecca Yale:

Rebecca Yale: 00:00 I'm always asking myself, why am I writing it this way? Why am I? Because everything you do is a choice, like every time you put your shutter, you're making decisions, and I think like most people again who maybe haven't really thought about it, don't realize that they're making these decisions.

Braedon Flynn: 00:13 Welcome to the photo report podcast where we talk to top level pro photographers about the business behind their craft, their journeys to get them where they are and the lessons they've learned along the way. I'm Braden Clinton. Your host and this episode is an interview with photographer Rebecca Yale, who unlike most photographers today, actually went to school for photography and share some powerful insights into how she approaches her craft and thinks through design and composition while shooting her subjects or styling decor. Before we get into the show, want to tell you real quick about our sponsor film supply club. If you shoot film or you're interested in film, I love film. It is the best place to get it at the best prices than amazing community of some of the top photographers in our industry. You can check it slash. Join now onto the show. Welcome to the show, Rebecca. So excited to have you on. And I just, for people who are not completely familiar with you, can you give a brief little intro on just your background in photography and sort of catching us up to where you are right now?

Rebecca Yale: 01:08 Sure. Yeah. Thank you for having me. So I've been doing photography my entire life. I started when I was basically 10 years old and fell in love with photographer, went to NYU for it where I was intending to be a fashion photographer when I started and quickly decided that wasn't right for me. And went and documentary photography and worked in that for about four years. So two years in school period. And quickly realized that wasn't right for me either. And um, wanted something that I could do everything in one day, a fashion still life documentary and was really kept being told but that didn't exist. And then I had to pick something to specialize in and I never had thought about weddings. I was not the little girl that dreamed about a wedding by any means. I am not married myself. And I thought weddings were like my parents really like old school, 1975 awful photos like no room to be an artist in wedding photography. And then in 2011 my cousin got married, um, and a beautiful estate in Vermont and I followed her around her wedding photographer. The whole day was so that I know and get that like I would be like, leave me alone. Um, but luckily she was really nice to me and I fell in love with weddings and seven years later I'm in 100 plus weddings. Later I'm shooting weddings.

Braedon Flynn: 02:24 Went from shooting that one friend's wedding. How did you go from there to then getting booked, you know, and getting your name out because obviously people have shot a wedding before. But then going to book, I've shot a wedding, now I've got a full business.

Rebecca Yale: 02:38 Yes. that is not how it works. Luckily I had been, for lack of a better word, beaten down a lot when I was doing the documentary photography and had kind of learned humility already when I, uh, when I graduated from Nyu, um, I was definitely a little bit big headed. Um, I had just won a big award from pen and I spent six months traveling around Africa and Asia and I was like already for Nat Geo to give me a contract and they certainly did not and the editor ripped me to shreds and made me cry, but then became my mentor for the next two and a half years and changed my life. So I'm very grateful for that. And that's why I'm such a big fan of mentorships and critiques because I think that's how you grow. But yeah, luckily by the time I started in weddings, I had already gone through that experience and already had been kind of told, um, I'd been an instance of a mission and told that you needed to pay your dues.

Rebecca Yale: 03:27 So, I started by shooting a bunch of city hall elopements. I was living in New York and those were kind of an easy way to enter the genre. And then I was really lucky that two of my sister's friends were getting married and took a chance on me. My first couple to ever higher me, I will never forget this. I literally just told a prospective client this on Sunday, the first client to ever hire me outside of one of my sister's friends said: well, you photograph elephants well, and if you can do that, you can probably make me look good. They hired me. So, for $3,000 by the way. And that included whole day coverage and an engagement session. So good times. And I was already shooting film. So I definitely lost money. I lost money probably my first year and a half if not two years on most of my weddings because I was building my portfolio and I was shooting almost anything that would come to me. And I really did because being an artist was so important to me. I didn't want to sacrifice my own standards. So I've basically been a team of three. I definitely shoot a lot more film that I used to, but I've been a team of three had been shooting films since I started

Braedon Flynn: 04:32 What do you mean by a 'team of three'?

Rebecca Yale: 04:33 Yeah. So I always have a second shooter and an assistant basically, unless it's like under 15 people I always have that I shoot on average 80 to 100 roles at a wedding. Um, especially if it's like an outdoor California wedding. So I really need, I always need that team can't function without it.

Braedon Flynn: 04:49 I get that. Well, can I go back to when you had the mentor from Nat Geo? What? Yeah, how can you talk about how that was impactful and like obviously it sounds like you got beaten down, but then you said it like how powerful it was and changing for you. Like what, what in that, in that process I guess was helpful.

Rebecca Yale: 05:08 Yeah. So that's actually something I talk about all the time that I feel like we've talked about at WPPI and it really bothers me that I feel like WPPI is the only conference for photographers that doesn't have a critique process. So I met this editor at NAMPA, which is the North American Nature Photography Association, and I did a paid critique with her as you can do at the Santa Fe, New Mexico Workshop or the palm springs, like anywhere else in any other conference has critiques except Wppi and any kind of wedding started. But um, I paid for a critique with her and I was super excited. I had my old book, this was 2010, so I had my, like 11 by 14 leather bound portfolio that I spent thousands of dollars on and she opened it up and I had a photo that had won PDN, photo annual and I was super proud of and she was like, okay.

Rebecca Yale: 05:54 And then flip the page and saw the next photo and kind and then flip the other page and close it and was like, we're done here. And I was like, oh, I can I have a contract with National Geographic? And she was like, nope. Your first photo showed me that you can take a good photo. Your second photo told me it was by chance and your third photoshop me, you have nothing, you should not be in front of me right now. and I burst into tears and ran out because I was an immature 22 year old and ran out crying. But luckily it came back later that evening and apologize for running out and asked if I could because I paid for that and like wasted by time by running out. And I was like, I don't owe you, don't owe me any more time.

Rebecca Yale: 06:30 Like, that was awful of me. But I'd really appreciate if I could buy you dinner, take you out for a drink. I'll pay for more of your time. Like whatever it is, can I have a little bit more of. I'd love to hear more of what you have to say. And she like, you know, I've had, I've had a lot of people run out on me, which I was like, yeah, your name. But like I've never had anyone come back and I'd be happy to. And we had, we had drinks and she talked to me more and afterwards as I could, I said, you work in the future, like as I take in some of the things you said. And she said yes. And for the next two years, um, as I was traveling and working and that's when I was still working with a lot of NGOs.

Rebecca Yale: 07:04 I would send her work and she would be really, really harsh. I don't think I ever got good words from her. I got like an okay, it's better or like an acceptable. She never gave a ton of praise, but it really has so changed my work that during art school there was a ton of critique. But I think a little side of me like I was and again, like being young and stupid that like I wasn't really listening to the other students because I was like, Hey, like I'm better than them. They don't know. They're talking about and it was rock and you need to listen to your people. You respect and internalize that feedback to become better. Yeah. One of the, it's actually one of my first things that I give to my mentees and it's one of my first assignments when I actually tried to do it at least once a year.

Rebecca Yale: 07:42 This is why when I was going to Rwanda and Uganda Baptist editor gave to me as an assignment, she said that the entire time that I was there I couldn't, I had to shoot Jpeg, I couldn't associate and digital because I had to send photos to get a from the field says working for getty images at the time. Um, and I would shoot 100 percent jpeg. I wasn't allowed to crop, I wasn't wanting to do anything, so I had to nail it in the camera 100 percent. I had to look at every corner of my frame, every angle, make sure it wasn't tilted and that one assignment changed the way I look and see the world. Um, and it's the first assignment I give to my mentees. And I love seeing how things change for people doing that. And I still, again, I try to do it once a year now because it just makes you think differently.

Braedon Flynn: 08:21 Yeah, that's really great. With the background, having photos school and because there's a lot of photographers out there that didn't go to photo school, how do you feel like, I guess going through that program has. It hasn't been beneficial. Like how, how is that sets you up for sort of what you're doing now and how you're shooting?

Rebecca Yale: 08:41 Yeah, absolutely. I'm a big believer so I went to a school at Nyu called Gallatin School of individualized study, so it wasn't just a photography major. I was art history and aesthetic philosophy and basically the main, the core of my thesis because it like you're an Undergrad thesis was semiotics, so it was how do we derive ideas from imagery and specifically it was when I was still working in documentary photography, it was how do we use photographs to motivate social change? That was my study, but it's the idea of semiotics is it's the study of signs and symbols. So it's wire brain interpret things the way we do and in retrospect like, well, weddings were never what I thought I'd be doing. I was basically doing a master course and being a wedding photographer because I was studying all of these concepts that I use every day and I think there are so valuable and I completely, I understand not everyone, like I feel so lucky that I had the opportunity to go to photo school and I know that not everyone does, but you hopefully can take the time to learn these on your own.

Rebecca Yale: 09:38 Um, uh, well again, like I found my mentor after photo school who helped change me so much and I took a lot of persons that ICP and you work the center of photography that I talk about this all the time, that like 99 percent of wedding photographers, especially film shooters, are fine art community, don't know how to light. They say they're not light because they don't know how to light. I learned a little bit of lighting in school, but then I took a course from Uj camp at ICP. Like we can take the initiative and the time to learn these things sell just because we didn't go to school and there's just so much online that when I was um, I was like literally pulling out my dissertation notebook when I was just making related to the ecourse and working on like these 10 elements of design in it.

Rebecca Yale: 10:14 But I was like, oh, like I couldn't find certain things and I was like, oh, like I want to do claimants who have been accused spiral and there's so much information on the FIBONACCI spiral. Like you got like people can take the time and it's just, it's the prerogative. And I think a lot of people don't even know that they should be doing that. But it changes. It changes your life. When I say all the time about at least the courses that I'm doing now is that my goal is when you look at a photo. So many times people don't understand why it was good or bad and like they're like, I noticed photos better, but I don't know why. And I want to change that. Like it should be so easy to understand these concepts and be able to figure out what you need to sit. So that's what I'm trying to teach is the basic elements of visual language, how to read a photo, how to know if it's good or bad is subjective term. So like I try to say like visually interesting or dynamic or engaging.

Braedon Flynn: 11:02 Yeah. So if you were to, if you were to go through, obviously we will talk a little bit more about the courses that you have, but if, if you were to give just examples of a couple of things in a photo that would make, like as you are looking at a scene or you're looking at a couple or whatever it is that you're shooting, maybe details, what are the first couple of things that you're looking for that you will owe that you're always looking for? Does that make sense? Yeah,

Rebecca Yale: 11:25 yeah, totally. I mean it depends on what the frame is, but the overall I think always is why did I take this image? Like that's always the number one question that I'm telling people and it's not the same as like Angela Adams story that's told, although I just ruin the punchline by saying it that way, but there's a story that's told and like all photos, so all photo school, like there's this man on the side of the road taking an image of Yosemite and this old man comes back to them and it's like, why young men? Why are you taking this photo? He's like, if you were somebody of course, and he was like, what? Why are you taking that photo of Yosemite? And he was like, Hon, it was Angela Adams. And he was like, open up your frame and like shoot it this way. And it's the idea of thinking a little bit deeper about what's in your frame and why you're taking it that way.

Rebecca Yale: 12:09 So whether I'm shooting a detail, whether I'm shooting a couple, like a documentary moment, I'm always asking myself, why am I writing it this way? Why am I. because everything you do as a choice, like every time you click your shutter, you're making decisions. Even if you don't like most people again who maybe haven't really thought about it, don't realize that they're making these decisions. Um, I just had a great talk with um, another amazing photographer in New Mexico about that, that we, we've really different styles and how we should our reception. And she was like, no, I never really thought about even like white, like shooting it differently. Like this is just what works for me. Um, and she likes what she does and she can stand by it and that's totally fine if you can, but I've seen yourself like why am I shooting with off camera flash or why am I shooting with on camera flash and dancing it?

Rebecca Yale: 12:50 Or why do I want it everything dark? Why do I like those apps? Like every decision you make is the decision. So that's Kinda the first thing I would say when I look at an image is I asked myself why did the photographer take it this way? And then what is it telling me as the viewer looking at it. So that's like. And that, that change. Then you get into all the specifics, but that's really the most basic thing because then you get into like movement and flow within the image. Like where does my. I enter it, where do you pass through the image? Like where's my ibm cloud? Is it being led to the subject? Is it being bounced out of the frame? Am I seeing if it's a pride issue like posed in a way that she's going to hold, like, is that a good angle on her? If they're walking to their legs, look crooked. I'm like all of those little things that like get like way, way worse, but it all starts with why. Why that image.

Braedon Flynn: 13:38 That's great. And so when you're directing a couple, and I'm, I'm assuming you're directing them a lot more than just documenting. Yes. Yes. And so you're directing them and how like how do you, are you structuring that? Let's say, let's say you've got a pretty backdrop and you've got a couple and they're standing there. You can be using the backdrop. How are you directing them? Are you getting them to movie directing the interact? How much are you just using them as sort of subjects in the frame and really using the aesthetic, the backdrop, just maybe like if someone was listening in and wanting to hear like, okay, what, what would be a good strategy and like looking at this, how are you going into that?

Rebecca Yale: 14:16 I definitely, I really interact with my couples and it's funny, I actually um, I didn't even realize this about myself until a couple of years ago. I will physically move them by myself. Like I did not realize how hands on I was until someone was watching me do it and I think it was like my mom was watching me and she was like, I understand like I used to love like Barbie dolls as a kid and she was like, you're a couple of their, like Barbie dolls. Like you're literally moving their arms like you did when you were a child. And I was like, yeah, I guess I do really think about it like that. But yeah, I really like it is. Or like humans, all you get to play with it. So much fun. But I do, I want my photos to look as genuine and as authentic as possible.

Rebecca Yale: 14:51 So even when they are posed, I want them. It's like, I know Christian off kind of coined this term of like the pose pose, but I really like, I like it so I stolen it or given him credit, but I really, I want, that's what I always want my photos to see. Like I like to think of them, it's like kind of be cinematic moments that like someone like prep pod, so it's like this beautiful authentic looking moment, but it's the, it's the decisive moment. So it's like the army, Mccarthy, a pinnacle of the action, but everyone also still looks amazing, which you kind of can't do if they're not posed. And that's where like, I totally understand like the fear list and like kind of photographers out there don't really care about that stuff as much. Um, and they just want that genuine emotion and that's great.

Rebecca Yale: 15:31 And I think there's totally a photographer for everyone. My background coming from fashion as well, like I spent six months working in Abidjan archives, scanning one shoe of Lauren Hutton in the sixties in Paris and it was her walking towards the camera and her walking away and it was all shot in a heartbeat and I just spent like a month and month scanning the exact same thing of her walking and then I could see like Alexey brodovitch and I've Bene Lieberman which they had circled in which avalon his circle and that again, like that experience that happened outside of art school was so informative to me of seeing the difference of like a Pinky by her faith or pinky farther away from her face that the care that's put into these images and that the care that I believe it's on was the first one in a million dollar contract from vogue.

Rebecca Yale: 16:15 I'm certainly not getting a million dollar contract and vogue anytime soon, but I want. I want to shoot everything at that same standard. Which is why I was saying when I started in 28, when I was doing 2012, 2013, I lost money because I was not willing to compromise my standards and luckily it caught up and the investment was very worthwhile. But yeah, that's a huge. That perfectionism is a huge part of my work, but I do want it to. It's like, it's perfectly, it's perfectly imperfect. Like I want it to look authentic and awesome and so many of my couples don't realize, I suppose like when they are, when I'm talking to them and they're like, I want on my part, like totally natural, like within your portfolio. And I'm like, oh, point to what you like. And I'm like totally posed. So

Braedon Flynn: 16:52 yeah, it's the same thing where it's like, yes, every. Yeah. Basically everything is directed, you know? And I, I always say like, listen, I'm, I'm directing you to interact. So it looks incredibly natural and comfortable and directing. So you don't have to think about what to do, you know? So, so often people feel like they have to perform in front of the camera. So if you can take that away from them, it's like, oh wow, this is really easy, and then then you're able to really sort of construct and frame around that. But yeah,

Rebecca Yale: 17:18 yeah. I think a big part of our job is just getting people comfortable in front of us. It's weird to be in there. I hate being in front of the camera. Like I'm so glad that you guys can't see me right now. I'm recording the intro to my course. Took me nine hours to get three minutes of contact because I literally could not like words would not come out of my mouth when I had the camera in front of me. I don't know what happened. I was really surprised by it. But uh, it's really, it's hard. I always joke like the Alec Baldwin from 30 rock when he has to be on camera and he has two mugs and advantage, like what do I do with my hands? And he looked like crazy. I always joke with my couples, but like that's what happens when I point the camera at them and I really, I feel like it's our job as portrait makers to kind of break down those walls and make them feel comfortable.

Rebecca Yale: 17:58 That's like going back to avid on like there's this amazing photo that he took a Marilyn Monroe. He vomits famous and amazing and beautiful and it's kind of, it's her dying and it's at the end of the photo shoot and she had spent the whole time performing for the camera as she was used to doing. And then she thought he had put it away and she kinda just slumped down and he took this one last frame and it's now very famous work of art and that, you know, there's very few true photos of Maryland's essence and that's amazing. And that's always. I feel like my goal is to get the essence and just let people drop their guard. So I feel like again, like you can't really have too much of an ego as a wedding photographer or a portrait. Just in general. I'm like, I joke, I'm adapting my pee on wedding days. I will do anything to make my client files and make them happy to make them laugh. Yeah, whatever it takes.

Braedon Flynn: 18:45 Yeah. It's always funny the what you were saying like taking yourself too seriously when you think about wedding photography and when there's people who are like really famous as a wedding photographer. He was like, but just remember your wedding photographer and that sort of thing and you

Rebecca Yale: 19:01 know, it's funny. I feel like there is a little bit like having the celebrity wedding photographers that are starting to happen a little bit of a back side to that culture of like again, like we have to remember what we're there for that like I especially when I moved out to California, I found it way more than you work have. Like these workshop dog refers who we're taking all these workshops weren't actually spending the time to learn how to tell a story and we're just learning how to take a pretty photo and nothing more than a pretty photo and so much more than pretty photos. And I had a second shooter way, long time ago that I asked him or her not going to call anyone out to shoot some cocktail, just like a, like Robin grants. Um, while I was shooting the couple and details and the person came back to me and was like, after five minutes he was like, I'm done.

Rebecca Yale: 19:44 And I was like, there's 200 people out there, what do you mean you're done? They're like, oh, I thought I like, I got everything. Like this is boring. Like I got a few, it's fine. And I was like, are you kidding me? Like go back out there and do it in person was like, stuff like I wouldn't like why am I doing this? And I was like alright, I'm gonna if I fired them it was, it was awful. But I just like, we are never are they actually. And they told me too that like I said for a photo and they didn't want to take it. So when they just pretended to take it and I was like, that couple is going to ask me for that photo and you are not going to have it in your gallery. Like what are you thinking? And it just, it blew my mind.

Rebecca Yale: 20:19 It was one of my first weddings in California and I was just like, oh my God, I'm, we're not above anything at the end of the day. Like. And I used to do photography at Nyu my whole four years there I was. Skeletons, events photographer. You're, we're not above anything. Like get over your ego, get over yourself, take the photo to your client wants. It's not. You don't have to show it. Like if your groom, what? I've had so many rooms, lobbies like awful photos, but I'm like Oh God, please do not post this and tagged me in it, but I'm going to take it for them. Like just ego needs to be out of way and I feel like anyone, like the most famous people will tell you that that's why they got famous. That's why they're good.

Braedon Flynn: 20:53 Exactly, exactly. One, something you and I have talked about before in an other conversation is being financially savvy and knowing your numbers. Can you talk about that and sort of and what do you, I guess, what do you do and what are you looking at and what are you. What are the pitfalls? You see?

Rebecca Yale: 21:09 Yeah. I think that's so interesting. I think so many people are getting into this without any business plan in their head and if you don't see yourself as a business person, then so many people were like, oh, like I want to be. I mean, forget weddings. I want to be a photographer. You don't think of yourself as being a small business and you are in. You need to pay ty had it like a two hour call with my accountant yesterday. Now that I'm getting into education stopped like it complicates things and I'm like, oh joy, but you need to. You need to have a plan and you need to be smart. When I work with my mentee is one of the things I do. I do a whole. One of my whole sessions is all about finances and your business plan and how you're getting business and how you're keeping it.

Rebecca Yale: 21:51 And I run metric sheets for people and for many people it's the first time they've ever, like, they don't even know what a metric sheet is and it's the first time they've seen these numbers and realized like cost prohibitive pricing and what their cost of goods sold are and how just lowering like I hate, like I've never wanting to tell people to lower their prices. Usually I'm telling them to raise them. But for people who aren't looking for them to understand that if they lower $500 in their booking more weddings, the difference that makes is like mind boggling because when you're something like so expensive, when you're like four to $5,000 or four more, booking one or two weddings can be a $10,000 difference. And I feel like people don't always think that through. So like, yes, demand what you're worth and know how much you're charging and uh, make sure you're making profit.

Rebecca Yale: 22:40 Because that happens a lot. Is like people will add more film into their work more. Second shooter is a not raised their prices enough to do like you need to know your pricing, but you also should know when to invest in yourself. I do not think it's a mistake by any means that in 2013 and 2012 I lost money shooting some weddings because it has paid off off a hundred times. You have to think like any small business tography, forget any kind of any, any business, forget small loses money their first two years of business. If you can be profitable and under two years like wow, and you're probably not doing it yet. You're not even doing something right. You're honestly probably doing something wrong because you're probably not investing in yourself enough for growth. If you're just complacent, you're not ever going to reach the next level. Um, and I'm not telling everyone to go out and lose money by any means, but no pick and choose when you need to invest in yourself to be able to get to that next level of what you want to charge and the people you want to be working with,

Braedon Flynn: 23:34 things that you were doing to invest in yourself that were causing money and causing you to like what, what would be a wise way to be spending your money to be investing in yourself so that you can be more profitable down the road.

Rebecca Yale: 23:46 So a few things. Um, I would say a bad investment is a big style, especially a big styled shoot workshop where you're not learning. I think a good investment is, uh, in your own real wedding. So I'm shooting more film. I'm at a wedding that I knew that might be publishing the or I knew just maybe a little bit nicer. I would shoot more film than I would add like a country club wedding. But I knew that I wasn't ever going to show anywhere. I knew that my clients really probably weren't being able to see the difference between the film and digital and that they wouldn't really care and they just wanted my great photos and they wanted the moment and there would be super happy, but if I knew that it was something I could send a family pretty or to Martha or to bribe, I would shoot more film and it would, my numbers would be very off balance.

Rebecca Yale: 24:34 So sometimes it was more that I was being paid, but that was a wise investment. Um, and then investing in education. I continued to take courses at ICP until I left New York. I learned lighting from Uj camp who has the most rolling stone covers of any photographer in the country. And I was able to assist her and learn from her. And she's incredible. I think investing in actual like actual education sounds really snobby because I really do. I think there are great photographers working in education, but I think that there's a trend right now that we have talked about of photographers doing these workshops and getting great portfolio pieces, but then not actually being able to recreate them or walking away with any, any skill and that that's what I'm frustrated by. I think we need to get back to skill.

Braedon Flynn: 25:17 Yeah. And so on skills you've got, you do have a couple ebooks you just came out with ecourses ebooks.

Rebecca Yale: 25:24 Yeah. Yeah. So my first one is um, more than pretty tone, which I came out with right after Wppi and it actually came from the talk that I did at Richard Photo lab and it's basically, it's my major, like wrapped up into like a little 45 minute packets and replied to wedding photography. But it's the idea of semiotics. It's how can you use visual language and the idea of reading imagery to create stronger images. So it's kind of like this little 45 minute intro into thinking deeper about why you're cooking your shutter and wire lighting things in certain ways while you're opposing things in certain ways. I tell the story of working in abstinence archive and I actually showed some of the photos and getting into it. It kind of skims over a lot in 45 minutes. I'm not able to like go way too deep into any of the concepts, although that is something I hope to do down the line more specifically into each of the like into posing and lighting and all of these things, which led me into my second course that.

Rebecca Yale: 26:23 Because having this art school background so much critique really with super important to me, I wanted to make sure that whatever I did in education was able to have that feedback loop. So I was debating. I was really struggling. I figuring out like I want to do lighting or posing, but I was like, I would need to have like 20 different models so each person can have their own model and then I would need Richard so overnight all the film and it would be so expensive and I want us all to meet the second day so we can go over it and it just became too crazy. I was like, there's no way that there's going to be at $20,000 a student, like I don't know how to do this. So I was like, what can I do that we'll start this feedback loop? And I decided on details that slightly photography has always been something I've loved.

Rebecca Yale: 27:03 And what's really great about it is when you're shooting, when you're shooting something flat, you are simplifying it to its most basic form and shape and composition is everything. Like there is no photo. The composition matters more than a flat image because that is all your, all, you have to literally, you don't have interesting light, you don't have interesting faces, you don't have a moment, you just have competition. So I was like I can use it as a vehicle to get out all this other knowledge that I've been wanting to share with everyone forever and didn't know how to. So that's honestly why I picked details. I also just really liked them and I won rangefinder awards for them. So it was like a good, like, launching place for me. Um, because I had some like a credit, like I dunno, like I had some qualifying things worked in it, but yeah, I, the, the course that I have out is that beginning of it is an hour long introduction that goes over all of the elements of composition and then how you apply them to flat lays but they've really go way beyond that.

Rebecca Yale: 28:00 I talk about like everyone knows the rule of thirds but we don't pass that like we don't really think about and like some people know Golden Triangle's but a lot of people like it's like it's a new thing when I say it like spiral and the idea of like movement and taking the eye on a journey. Like when you enter, when you enter a frame, like where does your eye enter it and then where does it go next and where does it exit the frame and what are you being drawn to. And that's something I didn't even learn in photography that was married history classes. Like I sat on the floor of the Lou for six months with my art history professor in Paris looking at history paintings in Jericho and does he need and being like, where do you enter this freedom and where do you leave it? And we literally spent, and I'm a horrible drawer, but we spent hours like sketching all of that, um, and like making weird little doodles and that. So that's all the knowledge that I'm now trying to get out there.

Braedon Flynn: 28:50 So where can people find that and where can people follow along with you and all that. So at Rebecca Yale, on Instagram,

Rebecca Yale: 28:57 Rebecca are you on instagram? And on facebook, Rebecca Yell, I have a facebook group called sadly styling at where I am. I'm giving critiques and feedback and teaching within the group, which I really loved. Um, it's been really like there's nothing more exciting to me than watching something clicks. So now my ecourses are all out now, which you can get on my website, Rebecca Palm. Um, it just click on the education and the courses are all there. And what's so exciting is now that people are taking them and practicing, I'm getting, I'm getting some before and afters and there's just like nothing could make me more excited than see it because again, like these are concepts, like this is something teachable that's posing and lighting are teachable, but they take a while. This something that like can click really quickly and then it can actually help with those other things. They can help with the rest because it's all competent as composition is composition, but it. So like there's got nothing makes me happier than like watching someone get something. So seeing these before and after photos that are like the, I call it like the paper pop where you just put the paper down and take the photo because you don't know what to do with it versus creating like a dynamic visually interesting frame. Like, oh it makes me feel happy.

Braedon Flynn: 30:06 Oh that's really fun. And so I don't know if, did he say it, but where can people find the courses?

Rebecca Yale: 30:11 Oh, on my website, go to And then there's a tab called education and it's right there. E-courses. And there's some freebies on my website too, so if you're not fully ready to take the plunge yet, you can download. I do a series on instagram every Monday called behind the frame, which is all of the semiotic stuff that I've been talking about. I talk about how I created an image every week and sometimes it's more technical of like lighting or so stuff and sometimes it's really more of the like, speaking of how I'm reading this frame and the visual language element to it and I've been doing it for like almost three years. So I created an ebook out of some of those and you can download it for free. Um, and then I also have a flat lay styling guide for free that you can download that has some of the basic concepts that should hopefully really help people. And then the facebook group, if you just search for valet styling, you'll find it.

Braedon Flynn: 31:02 Oh, how fun. Well, I think you all should go check that stuff out though. There's some incredible free giveaways. But Rebecca, thanks so much for taking the time, sharing your knowledge. And if you have not seen her, wear it, go check it out because it is beautiful. Thank you. Welcome. Thanks so much. Really helped you love that conversation and found something you can go apply to your own business. If you didn't know, there's a ton more content from before this podcast was started over on the photo report dot Com. Or you can search youtube for the artist report for even more. There's a bunch of interviews just with amazingly talented people talking about their business and how they got there. So please, and if you did like this podcasts or liked a couple of the episodes, please go give us review on itunes. Really helps spread the word and gets his podcast notice for other photographers. And thanks for listening and go be well and shoot well and don't forget to enjoy the journey on the way.